Posted by It’s been over two-and-a-half years since plans were first announced to make Pentwyn Leisure Centre the base training facility for Cardiff Rugby and yet it seems no closer to materialising as Cardiff Council, the club and the local community threaten to fall out over the direction of the site.
The history of this ongoing saga, which may well have happened largely out of sight of supporters, sees the Blue and Blacks move into the Leisure Centre during the first covid-19 lockdown as the Centre was closed to the public and the Arms Park had become part of the Dragon’s Heart Field Hospital.
12 months later and plans were announced to establish an Elite Performance Centre at the site with a multi-million pound refurbishment of the building housing both the Cardiff Rugby training facility, a community rugby hub and a community leisure facility which would be run outside of the Council’s contract with GLL/Better, who operate leisure centres in the city.
That went quiet over the following 12 months as the economic picture changed drastically, both within Welsh Rugby and across the country as a whole, until over the summer when consultations began around a new mixed-economy model at the site. The rugby club would rent part of the building for exclusive use, while the rest of the building would be refurbished and stay under GLL/Better operation.
There would also be a new artificial rugby pitch installed, plus improvement works done to the existing grass football pitch, bowling green and multi-use games area (MUGA).
Now at this point I will declare conflicts of interest on two sides. Firstly, I am clearly a Cardiff Rugby supporter, and secondly I’m a Pentwyn boy; I spent a large part of my childhood living in Glyn Eiddew and went to St David’s Primary School across the road from the Leisure Centre, where I learned to swim, had birthday parties and played any sport going.
I love Pentwyn Leisure Centre, I think it’s a great facility and so crucial to the north/north-eastern side of the city with the next closest centres of Llanishen and Eastern not being within particularly easy striking distance, especially for those using public transport. It’s a view shared by a lot of local people, hence the concern from them, particularly on a Facebook group called “Save Pentwyn Leisure Centre”.
There is a fair amount of talk in that group about the way the Council have gone about managing Pentwyn as part of the Better/GLL contract, and the process by which Cardiff Rugby ended up being involved in the refurbishment. That is not something I will comment on as i) it is not something I profess to have a great deal of knowledge on, and ii) it’s directly a Council issue.
Instead I’ll focus on some of the comments made on the group about the performance and viability of the Leisure Centre, and why Cardiff Rugby getting involved is an incredible opportunity for all parties, starting with the former where there is a fair amount of disinformation, unwittingly I hope, regarding the performance of the Centre.
The Council have been clear and open that Pentwyn was one of, if not the, worst performing Leisure Centre pre-covid. The group has attempted to hit back with statistics around the use of the swimming pool, but the metric for worst performing is a financial one. There is little uptake of non-swimming activities, memberships, and the running costs are exorbitant.
Anyone who has been to Pentwyn Leisure Centre loves the slide and the beach-style swimming pool, but without a tank servicing the pool water underneath the site the monthly costs were sky high. Yes, the Council should take responsibility for subsidising some services, but the level the Centre required was entirely unsustainable.
As a result there needs to be a sense of realism around what can be in place at Pentwyn, especially as costs continue to rise, so a redesign is needed. Solutions need to come from outside the box, and bringing in Cardiff Rugby is a very left-field option. A professional sports team moving to a somewhat deprived area of the city and setting up base in the struggling Leisure Centre? It seems crazy, but the possible wins are numerous.
For Cardiff Rugby they get the training base they’ve been searching for since leaving The Vale Resort in the summer of 2019, with an artificial pitch similar to that which we play on at the Arms Park and state of the art gym and medical facilities.
For the Leisure Centre itself there is income from part of the building being rented out to the rugby club, while it still offers everything it did before; a swimming pool, main hall, gym and cafe, but at a much more affordable cost level. It now also gets an improved grass football pitch for Pentwyn Dynamos FC, artificial rugby pitch and MUGA to hire out, and a generally refurbished building.
And for the local community they get their Leisure Centre back up and running, which has been so missed for nearly four years now. Yes, the swimming offering is not the same, but there’s still all of the previously listed facilities secured for current and future generations to enjoy. There’s an element of give-and-take, but the deal is a very good one overall.
To cement that Cardiff Rugby and Cardiff Council have to come together to demonstrate what is on offer to local people. The Cardiff Rugby Community Foundation run award winning sessions and events across wheelchair rugby, visually impaired rugby, fun-fit-fed camps and regularly go into schools to run rugby sessions, some of which is already happening at Pentwyn.
The Council can provide the statistics around use of the artificial pitches for hire and the boost that offers the local community, and start to build a rapport that will put Pentwyn Leisure Centre back at the heart of the area, along with the rugby club.
Winning the hearts and minds is the key to getting this project across the line, and then making a success of it on the other side. Yes, some attitudes need to shift on the side of the local community too, to open minds to change and embrace a slightly different future, but simply imposing changes on them without proper attempts to get them to buy-in is a recipe for disaster.
Once the case is made for the proposals as they currently are, it’s very difficult for any right-minded person to oppose them. It’s up to Cardiff Council and Cardiff Rugby to make that case properly.
Cardiff Rugby Life 
An excellent article. Many of us in Pentwyn completely agree that this can be a win-win solution to get our leisure centre back open and ready for the future.
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Absolute nonsense that the community will be doing better with these new plans. We’ve been without any facilities at Pentwyn for the last 3+ years. Being able to get on a bus and take my preschooler to soft play and swimming was a life saver, but even if the pool re-opens I won’t be able to return with the children as the beach entry is being removed so it will be no longer suitable for young children or families.
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You’ll still be able to do soft play with the new plans.
The only other council pool in Cardiff with a beach entry is Llanishen, so you’re saying at every other leisure centre with a pool (Eastern, Western, Mandy, Fairwater etc) that no young children or families swim there? Now that’s absolute nonsense.
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Losing the beach access will be a huge snub to the disabled community and will make it harder for people with all manner of mobility issues to use the pool. We need the leisure centre back open and available to the public. The longer it is closed the worse for everyone but the plans need to be changed to allow for all the important elements to be included!
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I know disabled people who use the pool at Eastern and Star without issue, so I’m not sure your point stacks up I’m afraid.
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What the author fails to mention, is that Pentwyn had one of the highest footfalls consistently for pool and leisure activities. This was despite GLL/Better/Cardiff Council’s neglect of the centre.
When Splott Pool was rebuilt not that long ago, the council spent over ÂŁ9million doing so, and Eastern Leisure Centre had a ÂŁ6million facelift. Yet here we are, an area with high levels of poverty and deprivation being further disadvantaged. It’s not right that a professional rugby team moved in on a ‘temporary’ basis during covid and never left. In 2021 they asked for a loan of over ÂŁ1million from Cardiff Council to create an artificial pitch which is massively controversial due to the negative impact on wildlife and biodiversity, as well as other various negative impacts for neighbouring properties. All we keep hearing about is rugby and football. The community utilise the centre for other activities and we aren’t all rugby and football players and supporters.
In 3 years Cardiff Rugby have done nothing for the community and have had plenty of opportunity to involve local children in activities but haven’t bothered.
All the changes have been done without any equality impact assessments by the council to determine the impact on the centres previous users. It also goes completely against the agreement made for GLL to protect leisure services in Cardiff. There was no community consultation until the plans for Cardiff Rugby to take over a large percentage of the centre were signed off and agreed by Cardiff Council. The views and needs of the local community have been ignored. The new pool will no longer have a beach style entry which was accessible for the disabled and young children and will instead be a boring small pool. The most popular pool under GLL’s management is Llanishen, so there is clearly a demand for this type of pool. The pool is already there, how much more expensive would it really be to put new heaters in? Surely cheaper than creating a whole new pool. But, this will be removed as well as all community rooms, so no more youth clubs in an area with significant anti social behaviour. According to the councillor in charge of all this, Cllr Burke, the community can ask Cardiff Rugby nicely if they can use their rooms!
Thank goodness for the campaign group Save Pentwyn Leisure Centre as they have exposed this situation for what it is. They have also ensured all the things they have raised are backed up with documents which they have sourced from Council records. Cardiff Rugby should be ashamed of themselves for their part in all this.
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I’m sorry you’ve taken such a long time to write a response so blindly filled with inaccuracies and plain untruths.
Yes, the leisure centre previously had high footfall, but as the data shows that doesn’t correlate to income and it was, in fact, haemorrhaging money. The combined £15m on Splott and Eastern wouldn’t even scratch the surface on getting Pentwyn modernised and viable with the current pool setup, which doesn’t just needs heaters, it needs a large tank placed under the site to service it.
GLL/Better have no desire to run the whole site, any community scheme would not get off the ground as no lender would touch it, or if they did then it would come with personal collateral from local people that would financially ruin them.
Cardiff Rugby have never asked for a £1m loan, we would not take any more debt on the balance sheet. On the community benefit, weekly Visually Impaired and Wheelchair Rugby sessions are run from the centre’s sports hall, and if a long-term future is secured at the site then I’m sure school holiday camps and school sessions will begin quickly, especially with an artificial pitch.
The people of that save the leisure centre group, who represent a minority of local residents as the group membership and petitions show, need to get real with their demands. All they are currently doing is harming the area.
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Please tell us what is inaccurate and untrue?
You really think ÂŁ15million wouldn’t modernise Pentwyn and make it more viable? Really? Before Covid, the pool at Pentwyn was open as usual. And we know from our meeting with GLL that several other leisure centres in Cardiff are also as you’ve put it ‘haemorrhaging money,’ yet they haven’t closed them for the last 3 years! And the contract made between GLL and Cardiff Council is being honoured for all other centre’s except for Pentwyn.
You also say that GLL have no desire to run the site. Who told you that? GLL have done what they have been told to do by Cardiff Council, that was established quite quickly when we met with GLL to find out why they have allowed this to happen. The money Cardiff Rugby are currently paying to rent the centre doesn’t even cover the costs to keep it open, so actually if it was about saving money, they would have been better off just boarding the place up.
You say that ‘any community scheme would not get off the ground as no lender would touch it, or if they did it would come with personal collateral from local people that would financially ruin them.’ You don’t know that at all, and yet you have the audacity to accuse our campaign group of putting out inaccurate information.
When talking about the ÂŁ1million loan from Cardiff Council, you say, ‘we would not take on any more debt on the balance sheet.’ We as a community were led to believe at the start of all this, that Cardiff Rugby were investing in the centre – loaning from the council is not an investment.
The community benefits you have discussed are not specifically for the local community who have lost, and are set to loose so much from all of this.
You also say that the Save Pentwyn Leisure Centre Campaign Group ‘represent a minority and need to get real with their demands, and that all they are doing is harming the area.’ No, what we are doing is researching and highlighting the truth. We are asking for a transparent process, proper consultation and for our leisure centre to re open and be equal or better to what we had before it was taken away. We certainly aren’t a minority.
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I’ve stated clearly what I believe to be inaccurate and untrue in my response, so I’m unclear why you would need to ask that question.
To modernise the entire centre, place the tank under the site and subsidise the further (at least) two years of closure that would be needed for that project, no, ÂŁ15m would not be enough.
You note that GLL are honouring the contracts at other sites but not Pentwyn – you’ve answered your own question on if they want to operate the site. There’s no approval for a contract variation without a signature from both sides.
It’s a simple case of economics around a community run option – the centre previously lost ÂŁ750k per year, that was prior to the huge rise in utility costs, so we can safely say to reopen now would cost over ÂŁ1m per year. No lender is touching that with a barge pole, and if members of the community used their own assets as collateral they would be bankrupt inside 12 months.
There was never any investment in the capital project of refurbishing the centre from Cardiff Rugby. I have seen the apparent evidence of the “loan” that you posted on Facebook – that is simply not a loan. A commitment in place from a private sector business to rent some or all of a site after a refurbishment or build is carried out by the Council is standard practice to avoid white elephants.
I’m not sure what community benefits “specifically for the local community” would even mean? Sounds very League of Gentleman!
The minority comment comes from the numbers; fewer than 700 followers on Facebook, fewer than 500 signatures on the petition regarding the artificial pitch. There are more than 15,000 people living in Pentwyn alone, before even considering the surrounding area.
Asking for “equal or better” is exactly why there is a need to get real with demands.
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What do you mean harming the area?
Are you saying that without opposition the centre would be up and running by now??
No. The fact of the matter is that Cardiff Rugby’s interest relies on planning permission for the proposed 3g pitch which is going through due diligence.
Nothing can be opened properly until a decision on the pitch has been made but it’ll be spun to seem like it’s the opposition from (actually quiet a large number of residents- 700 I think and counting) those campaigning is holding everything up.
With Cardiff Rugby’s shady at best history of paying rent of course there’ll be those that will want this deal scruntised. It has already been shown that there was absolutely no tender process and no other options considered.
What is being harmed when the area has had no facilities for 3 years? Yet Cardiff Rugby have been able to use the centre.in this time and the deal hasn’t even been agreed !
“Get real with their demands” ??
What that our centre and facilities plans are properly consulted with the community and our centre is given the same investment out neighbouring centres have had (?without the need for a partner).
Yeah really unreasonable demands 🤣
Where has been the presence of Cardiff Rugby in the area? Training schemes with the youth or presence in local schools?
Can I ask, do you live in the area?
Ok it’s a rugby opinion site but could it be any more onesided and inaccurate?
We’ve seen that the approach of “argue this and you’re damaging the area” is rubbish.
Since campaigning the pool size has been increased twice, the community services the centre will run will be more in line with what the community actually want.
This is Cardiff Council gifting a community leisure centre to a professional rugby team with a dodgy rent history because it’d be embarrassing for the capital team of the national sport to be without proper facilities.
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I would strongly suggest that if you want to engage in proper adult debate that you don’t put words in the other person’s mouth (or on their keyboard, in this instance), and that you take the time to read and understand the other party’s argument, as well as properly researching your own points. Also, do not hassle and harass me. Three comments in two days, becoming increasingly bizarre referring to “agendas” and making threats about my motives. If that happens again I will place you behind a block. I do not look at notifications over the weekend, I enjoy my time with family, friends and rugby.
Firstly, I have never claimed the Centre would be up and running. My comment was around the fact that every plan and approach to the Centre over the last few years has been opposed by that group. If that stonewall opposition, rather than an open-minded willingness to collaborate, continues then the harm to the local area being without facilities continues.
Your referral to Cardiff Rugby’s “shady at best” history of paying rent belies a complete lack of understanding around the company structure of Cardiff Blues Limited, the relationship with the landlord Cardiff Athletic Club, and the rental agreement that covers Cardiff Arms Park. It undermines any other claims that you make when you repeat falsehoods like that.
As for the other points regarding the operating of the Centre and the community benefits that Cardiff Rugby’s Community Foundation can offer, they are addressed elsewhere.
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You make a flippant comment on a previous comment about the length of time taken to respond yet with my response it seems to be too punctual??
“Hassle and harass you”?? What by posting a response then chasing it up to enquire when it will be posted??
Please by all means block away, I presumed that you may have wanted to hear two sides of the argument but it seems that you just want to post a one sided argument and belittle or provide flippant responses to anyone that does not agree with your pov.
But let’s just stick to the facts in this scenario-
Oh and when I say local community I mean the people of the areas that surround Pentwyn Leisure Centre, that the centre was originally built to serve.
You say “Firstly, I have never claimed the Centre would be up and running. My comment was around the fact that every plan and approach to the Centre over the last few years has been opposed by that group”….
Due to that opposition the community space earmarked for a paddle tennis court will now be used for something hopefully that the public who want their centre back, will have some say in.
Also since the (inconvenient) opposition have begun campaigning the size of the proposed pool has been increased twice with centre users now having a say in the entry point to the pool.
You agree that the centre, regardless of support/opposition, would not be up and running at this time, again I believe this is because the deal with Cardiff Rugby is dependent on the 3g pitch which is currently going through due diligence process.
So therefore claiming that any ‘noise’/action from opposition community groups is ‘harming the area’ is completely unfounded.
What you mean is that any opposition from those that would issue the centre has the potential to be damaging to the deal with Cardiff Rugby.
What happens if the plan proposed for a full size 3g pitch is not granted permission.
Would Cardiff Rugby then abandon the plan for the leisure centre? Would it be spun as the opposition groups have driven away the investment?
We’ve had nothing for 3 years yet Cardiff Rugby has used the facilities for a large period of this time. There is currently nothing for any opposition group to ‘spoil’.
Could you also address why there was no tender process to ensure the right partnership that reflected the best interests of the area was considered?
The services supported by Cardiff rugby community foundation have been in place for a while across the whole of Cardiff, could you describe please what the Rugby Foundation is doing to connect and reassure the community the centre will serve in light of such conflicting feeling?
This whole piece makes a headline of “Capturing hearts and minds…” But I don’t see much effort going into that when any criticism is met with flippant remarks, mocking and an attempt to point the finger at those that just simply want the same investment as provided to neighbouring centres without the need of a partner.
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That comment was made because the commenter noted five days previously that it was possible to leave a comment, so had five days to think about what he was going to write before producing what he did. You made a comment and expected an immediate reply, proceeding to hassle and harass. No justifying that behaviour, I’m afraid.
I have no problem at all with local people shaping what should be in a refurbished and reimagined centre, padel (not paddle) and the pool size are good examples of that, but as commented by the leader of the group, it is pushing for “our leisure centre to re open and be equal or better to what we had before” and seemingly will oppose anything except that, the main argument of which seems to be linked to the beach style pool which has been shown to be unviable.
The artificial pitch is another example of opposing anything that is being presented. It brings huge community benefit and is very much the future for sports and recreation across the city. Yes, Cardiff Rugby’s involvement does hinge on that pitch, but it’s worth so much more beyond just the rugby for local youngsters and sports teams.
It should ultimately be noted that Cardiff Rugby will be fine if the Pentwyn Leisure Centre arrangement doesn’t happen. The first team have not been based at the Centre since the club were forced to take part of the building during the pandemic when the Arms Park was used as a field hospital. Since that field hospital was dismantled the team have used the Arms Park as a full-time training base, I don’t believe there is much utilisation of Pentwyn outside of some Academy usage currently. I only commented some months ago, off my own back, because I believe it is an optimal outcome for all parties. If it doesn’t happen then the rugby club will just continue to use the Arms Park as a training base, but I worry that Pentwyn Leisure Centre will then never re-open.
Beyond that, the comments about the tender process, community foundation and the capturing of hearts and minds you make once again belie the fact that you have not properly read both the original blog and subsequent comments, which makes it very difficult to continue to engage with you. I’m not going to repeat myself over and over.
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Sorry I’ve read through a couple of times and still can not find a reply to the lack of a tender process nor a response as to why Cardiff Rugby have not made an effort to win the hearts and minds of those that will be directly affected by the current proposals, unlless this piece is considered that??
I too do not intend to go around in circles either, i just wanted to ask about the supposed mistruths you accuse the SOLC of spreading.
The original piece is slightly more considerate of the questions and concerns the neighbouring community and future ‘customers’ of the centre may have but your replies/comments betray this facade and show that you’re mudslinging and trying to undermine the argument against this project.
700 concerned residents and centre users may seem an insignificant amount to you but these are real people that are entitled to their say.
The council have failed miserably to provide a proper consultation process or platform for the community to have any input into the planning of the centre. Unfortunately then what happens is that feeling spills over into conversations/posts like this.
Seperately (and I’ve read through a lot of group comments and posts about this situation) 700 although a small number in your eyes, far outweigh those that take to these platforms to express their gratitude and support of the project.
As you say though Cardiff Rugby will be fine if Pentwyn Leisure Centre arrangement does not go through and they’ll simply move their interest to another site. Good for them.
How long will the concern of what will become of the centre last then when the circus has moved on?
The residents will have exactly what they have now and have had for 3 years, nothing.
During a community pulic consultation it was staed by one of the planners Steve Morris that Pentwyn was chosen because of it’s proximity to the major roads into and out of Cardiff (and Wales). Before you contest this comment is recorded on audio equipment used at the meeting.
If a pitch would mean so much to the local youngsters and sports teams imagine how much a whole community centre with pool, gym, halls, courts and services would mean.
I don’t understand your flippant, patronising and mocking responses. This has become an online conversation and I’m afraid there may be some that disagree with your viewpoints (only 700 though so not that many).
Thank you for correcting my spelling of padle, just goes to show how well known the sport is.
This is my last response.
I belong to a growing group of people local to Pentwyn and the surrounding areas (with in the centre’s catchment) who believe this whole deal has been agreed in private and rushed through to reduce the backlash.
The plans provided at public consultation were exactly that, detailed plans with measurements and dimensions not ideas or an invite for the community to have their input into what they would like.
The three closest leisure centres have all had significant funding without the need for a partner even though proved that some of them were performing worse than the centre that’s been highlighted as unsustainable without a partner.
If not alerted to the details of the actual deal decided as ‘in the communities interest’ im sure this would be further along the path.
It was agreed by council and local counsellors that the public consultation was inadequate.
Now proper procedure is being followed (or has been requested) this has slowed the process. Those behind the project are trying to point the finger and say the groups demanding due diligence could be responsible for the whole project to be scrapped and the community be without leisure facilities.
As you said yourself the deal hinges on the pitch being approved so whether everyone backs the plan or not Cardiff Rugby will drop their interest if not granted the pitch. That’s not very community driven🤔.
It’s just a site to Cardiff Rugby but it’s the centre of a community that just want transparency and involvement in what is decided best for them.
All the best.
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Paragraph 8 on the tender process. You specifically referred to me on the hearts and minds element, not the club. It’s not my job to win any hearts and minds.
Your accusation of a facade and mudslinging, when that is in fact not true at all, is a very telling one in terms of what happens when you are challenged. Rather than address the points you have consistently tried to move the goalposts or just ignored them altogether. The attempted justification of the 700 number is desperate, at best.
I’ve no idea why I would contest those comments from Steve Morris as they bear no relevance to anything raised so far.
The community would be getting a sports hall, community rooms, a pool, a MUGA and “services” along with the pitch, so again I’m unclear on the relevance of that comment.
The responses are far from flippant, they are detailed and coherent. If you feel they are patronising then I apologise, but it’s difficult to take some of the points raised seriously. For example, claiming your mispelling of Padel is down to how well known it is when it’s the fastest growing sport in the world. A simple Google would reveal that, and the potential revenue it would bring to the Centre.
The remainder of that comment is again irrelevant, as per paragraph 8, until the final paragraph. Trying to criticise the rugby club for only being interested in the pitch when they are primarily involved for a training base is either incredibly naive or just a cheap attempt at petty points scoring. Either way it’s not a good look.
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